You might be OK with characters learning new skills, but still want to restrict how many skills they can have. If they aren't, can you detail what's different in yours? I have a player who is interested in gaining proficiency in a herbalism kit to then be able to make simple healing potions. Something can be done or not a fit? Great points, I think a mix of all of the above may be necessary. It benefits the whole team. It is pretty expensive if you want to start from scratch and you have a +0 modifier for that ability. The Training Check die continues to decrease in size on every result of a 1. Increase your Strength score by 1, to a maximum of 20. Why was USB 1.0 incredibly slow even for its time? Your Intelligence modifier only dictates how many additional proficiencies you can pick up, it is not the end all be all for determining the length of time. With those three, theres hardly room for cooking, smithing, and playing the flute. Where does the idea of selling dragon parts come from? Here's the link: https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-Lz6FW_oLGwzjnmCEX3u. At the end of 4 hours where you practiced and studied medicine, anatomy, and health - you would then roll a d8. They make progress a number of times equal to their modifier, this means that if a Cleric has a +3 Wisdom, theyd have succeeded automatically on their Proficiency Check three times! It only takes a minute to sign up. Of course, its ignoring the skills that come with tools. Common and Uncommon are for determining the rarity of teachers. What skill feats currently exist in Fifth Edition? The training lasts for 250 days and costs 1 gp per day. In a major city, it might be difficult to find someone to train you in Survival though it might be easier to find a sage to help teach you an ancient or forgotten language. Your relevant ability modifier, that you choose when you first began training, allows you to automatically succeed and make progress on your Training Check a number of times equal to the ability modifier, up to a maximum of five times. Last edited by Wtfdndad: Jun 7, 2020 I think with the variant rule at the bottom it addresses that issue. Learning new words: how many are needed, how many one Learning Electronics: Whats a good beginner project I Learning a World Model and a Driving Policy | Wayve. First, you must find an instructor willing to teach you. Using the model from Unearthed Arcanas skills and tool feats, I think a build your own specialization could work. Bonus Proficiencies. Why is the federal judiciary of the United States divided into circuits? How can I give players more choice in determining their skills? Using this variant rule, you can add . Just because the life of an adventurer is filled with danger, doesn't mean you can't pick up a tool for retirement. Is there a mechanism for gaining proficiencies or skill improvements in play? The ability for skills is determined by the ability most commonly associated with them, see page 174 of the Player's Handbook (2014) for more information. The problem is bladesinger gets proficiency in only one melee weapon(https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/wizard#Bladesinging) So I want my fellow warrior to tech me martial weapons proficiency. Do player characters ever freely learn new skills/proficiencies? Tools are a bit more complicated because WotC hasnt provided a concrete list, but I have gone ahead and added a list of tools to the document of all the tools, plus the ones that Dump Stat have created, along with the ability scores I use for each one. A character needs a number of successes on a d4 equal to their Proficiency Bonus. Do characters ever gain new skills/proficiencies? (and you have higher standards on what you might say you are proficient in). Most other classes don't have features that add a skill proficiency. Spending additional time training has no additional effect on a d4. Follow us on Twitter to keep up to date on everything we talk about! I had a player want to train for a new weapon and looking over those rules was pretty uninspiring. Alternatively, I could offer a single point of Ability Score Improvement. For the cost of a single Ability Score Improvement, a character can take proficiency in a combination of three skill proficiencies or three tools thanks to the Skilled feat. Some class specializations provide a new proficiency in a tool or with a stat. Where do I find the rules prohibiting animals from learning certain skills? A trainer could take on many forms, from a prestigious library to an old monk to a retired adventurer offering training as payment for taking on a job. Rogues get one additional, and fighters get two more. Rules for learning new skills in D&D [duplicate]. But what is it worth in terms of feats? You need 6 successes to be proficient, but if you have only succeeded three times, with the variant rule, you'd still get a +3 bonus to your roll instead of the full +6). I'm finding myself waffling on which time requirement to use for training in a new tool proficiency and would like to get perspectives of other DMs. The rest of your ability scores dictate that - which makes this system more responsive to characters improving in places they are already good at. Some content used under the open gaming license. This special train can grant proficiency in a skill or the gain of a feat. The game offers a few methods by which a character can gain proficiencies, aside from those chosen at first level for class and background, and any bonus proficiencies learned due to specialisation in a class. ToA definitely feels like something that would work well with gritty realism (or partial gritty realism). If I had to rewrite it, pry treat it the same way as armor at that point, but I have far less reservations of the rogue dealing an average of 1 additional damage per turn than if the wizard just trained up to get heavy armor. The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site, Learn more about Stack Overflow the company. Why isnt it 20? A knowledge Cleric can be proficient in any skill, temporarily Clerics from the Knowledge Domain have a channel divinity feature that allows them to, for a short period of time, be proficient in any skill. Browse other questions tagged, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site, Learn more about Stack Overflow the company. Does illicit payments qualify as transaction costs? Traveling through the jungle is dangerous, and doubling back takes a lot of traveling days. This means if you want to be proficient in a set of heavy armor, you must have at least one proficiency in light armor, and one proficiency in medium armor. As your character grows in levels, your proficiency bonus increases, making you more likely to succeed on skill checks, attack rolls, and saving throws where it applies. Additionally, Star Wars 5e has substantially more languages than traditional 5e, since it spans an entire galaxy, with hundreds if not thousands of species, each speaking their own language. Your DM might allow additional training options. This means that your Training Check die will begin as a d20, and then slowly get smaller as you increase your own understanding and make progress on your training. Proficiencies Armor: None Weapons: Daggers, darts, slings, quarterstaffs, light crossbows Tools: None Saving Throws: Intelligence, Wisdom Skills: Choose two from Arcana, History, Insight, Investigation, Medicine, and Religion Equipment You start with the following equipment, in addition to the equipment granted by your background: In order for a character to gain an armor proficiency, they must be proficient in at least one piece of armor from the previous category, except for light armor that does not have qualifications. Due to your own table, you might decide to allow only a character to learn additional skills or weapon proficiencies by taking feats. Something analogous to 'cross class skills' from old editions. An answer that's actually helpful to this question would not fit on the dupe. Related 2 Official rules for using optional skills 3 Where do I find the rules prohibiting animals from learning certain skills? Because every die has a 1 on it, not every die has a 20 :). You could change it to the maximum possible result on the die, but I wanted to avoid confusion. If a character actually only wishes to learn a new language or tool proficiency, rather than the more valuable skill proficiency, this is given as an option when using downtime for training: You can spend time between adventures learning a new language or training with a set of tools. RP it if it suits you or just set a level based requirement that all players can take advantage of. But to learn a new tool, I use the PHB rule of 250 days, instead of the XGE rule of 10 workweeks minus the character's intelligence modifier. Characters rarely gain new skills and proficiencies as they go about their day-to-day lives while they adventure and risk their life. But first, we discuss the trouble that Wizards of the Coast has gotten themselves into and why people keep crying foul over what they perceive as racism in the game. The character chooses a narrow field in which to become a specialist. Are class skills picked before or after your character's Background is selected? I will probably introduce something like this the next time we have downtime activities. You gain proficiency in the Athletics skill unless you are already proficient in this skill. In other words, if a rogue character doesn't select "Sleight of Hand" as a proficiency at first level, they'll literally never gain that proficiency. Specifically, multiclassing into bard, ranger, or rogue allows the character to choose an extra skill proficiency from the relevant class skill list. Theres a lot of great stuff that came with the arrival of Fifth Edition. And the complete list of proficiencies can be found in the Player's Handbook in each of the race's, class', and background's page. Note: I may have a missed a few others from various official expansions. Concentration bounds for martingales with adaptive Gaussian steps. Training is a rule in Dungeons & Dragons which refers to a period of in-game time and/or money which must be spent in order to increase in character level or gain new abilities. Instead of having the benefits of all three at certain levels, players have to make tough choices. Character advancement - buying new skills with Karma. To pump up the challenge more, you up the DC for every level. This is your Training Check and on the result of a 1, you have successfully made progress on training your new proficiency. I should've marked that one as another tool I've created. Did neanderthals need vitamin C from the diet? I don't believe this is a good dupe; despite the title, I don't think the body actually aligns with this question. There are a few small rules in the document I didnt go over, but the basics are here. In this article, I hope to expand upon skills a bit. But, we arent done yet. If you ignore all that and squint really hard, they look the same. Enter your email address to follow this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. When they spend their 4 hours and roll their Proficiency Check, they would then roll that d8, instead of the previous d20, and on a 1, they make progress and swap out a d8 for a d6. The DM may decide to allow characters to gain a proficiency in armor instead of taking the feats provided in the Player's Handbook. What this allows is the ability for a character to choose expertise in a skill or tool over one of their normal skill choices. Some classes, like the rogue and the bard, get . See, I think that a really wise character should have an easier time of learning to medicine than some dumbass with a sword who keeps not seeing those super obvious traps that have signs hanging from them that read, TRAP! Glad to hear! The DM may decide to give characters a partial bonus to their new proficiency, based off of the number of successes they have made on their d4 die. And theyd be mostly right. Using this variant rule, whenever a character learns a new skill, they must replace one of their pre-existing skills with the new skill once they finish training. Training in new tool proficiencies is explicitly covered in the Player's Handbook, pg 187, under "Training": The training lasts for 250 days and costs 1 gp per day. Edit : to add, this sounds like a fun alternative way to do what is described as a very dull and boring mechanic in the books. The majority of the character classes in Fifth edition offer only five such choices. This proficiency system is meant for the purpose of learning additional proficiencies as you journey across the world and visit exotic locales and try new things. But for someone already naturally gifted in intelligence or strength or something else, it'll be a lot faster and cheaper. This would reduce their Proficiency Check die from a d20, to a d12, then to a d10, and finally a d8. Why is number 1 the goal? How do I arrange multiple quotations (each with multiple lines) vertically (with a line through the center) so that they're side-by-side? More artifacts, including a sword doing everything it can to kill Vecna. Page 231 of the DMG has the option of offering a reward to a PC that includes training to achieve a new skill proficiency. Am I missing something? It doesn't bother anyone in our groups in the least when someone adds a new skill or tool proficiency. FYI, duplicates are more than okay! Personally, I found the rules to be a little overpowered, and since the content was never released in an official capacity, I estimate that Wizards of the Coast discovered the same thing. With the release of 2Ed, the range of Skills was vastly expanded, and the Skill Rules were updated and streamlined somewhat. First, a player must determine what proficiency they are wanting to learn. The DM can decide to let the player train in whatever else beyond tools and languages if they want, but that's the training rule that Wizards have in Xanathar's. This is a pretty powerful little feature. How can you gain proficiency in a skill after level 1? All characters (and monsters, actually) have a proficiency bonus in Dungeons & Dragons 5e - the first edition to use this rule. Just a single skill with the reliable talent feature probably isnt good enough, but two might be worth it. If you want a printer-friendly PDF of this homebrew, or any other homebrew or tool weve made, consider supporting us at the $1 tier on our patreon! Bladesinger Extra Attack, dual wielding and cantrips, how does it work? Clerics from the Knowledge Domain have a channel divinity feature that allows them to, for a short period of time, be proficient in any skill. Site design / logo 2022 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA. No reason why they can't eventually learn to nature if they are focusing lots of time and gold on it. Should a character take improvements to passive observation skills, or get three luck points? Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. I was thinking of including Armor, but there are feats for that and I feel like Armor can get abused, so I included it as a variant rule. Now, of course, some may argue that arms and armor and tools arent really skills. When they roll their die and gnash their teeth in frustration, there is more energy at the table than just watching a workweek float on by. This isn't full proficiency in any skills, but it does make the bard somewhat better at using any skills they aren't already proficient in, and can be had for a 2-level drop in bard. When a PC is a Cult Leader: How to Make the Cult an Press J to jump to the feed. This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. It doesnt require 10 weeks (minus your Intelligence modifier). When you make a Strength (Athletics) check to climb a difficult surface, you can make the check with advantage. Performance. D&D immediately went out-of-date [rules-wise] by 1977, when RuneQuest and Traveller appeared on the market, because these two RPGs, as well as all others which I know of which followed [and thats a very great many, including a number in French] have Skill-based Rule Systems in order to actually successfully promote Role-playing.and Story-telling. You gain proficiency in the Arcana skill unless you are already proficient in this skill. Dungeon Master Dave is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Maybe this will help anyone who checks it out/inspire some stuff for this training system the OP is making? How could my characters be tricked into thinking they are on Mars? Sorry for the confusion. Can several CRTs be wired in parallel to one oscilloscope circuit? If you are able to find someone to help you train, when you roll your Training Check, you can make progress and move down to a smaller die on the result of a 1 or 2. Restrict the proficiencies that a character can learn with this feat to only Tools and Languages. An array of specialization feats would be nice in a large reference book, but hopefully, the information offered here is enough to get you started. The rubber protection cover does not pass through the hole in the rim. Hope that makes sense. A Lore Bard gets 3 new proficiencies at level 3 That's one class that gets a new proficiency as part of the class progression. At this point, the DM throws their hands in the air and the 9 weeks pass by in a snap because they have a game to run and a world to build and a story to weave. However, it may be correct that I recollect that it may still have strictly been optional. You are able to obtain and increase saving throw proficiency up to +6 by reaching success milestones and they are as follows: +0 = 5 successes, +1 = 5 successes, +2 = 10 successes, +3 = 15 successes, +4 = 20 successes, +5 = 25 successes, +6 = 30 successes. Sleight of Hand. Training costs to gain levels are optional or ignored in newer editions of Dungeons & Dragons, but occasionally appear as a variant rule in some . Gotta roll those dice, or else why buy so many? Enter your email address to subscribe to our blog and receive new post notifications, Skills Revisited | New Rules for Fifth Edition, on Skills Revisited | New Rules for Fifth Edition, DMDave is a division of Hamrick Brands, LLC, Unearthed Arcana Weapon Mastery and Tool Feats, Chinese Dragon | New Monster for Fifth Edition, Backgrounds Instead of Races | Rules Option for Fifth Edition. But what does Mastery in a skill mean? I'd be careful with that. If someone is over and over trying to teach themself how to use a longbow, there's no reason why they can't pick it up and they aren't forced to burn a valuable ASI or spend a level to take fighter and gain all the weapons and armor. To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. If the DM allows for the variant human, thats another one. Can we keep alcoholic beverages indefinitely? 21 Can PCs learn skill, proficiencies, or spells from other PCs? (DMG, p. 231). Agreed with @Carcer , this is a completely different question from the flagged duplicate. You would repeat this Training Check until you gained 2 successes on a d4 die. If you spend 8 hours training with your helper, you can instead choose to re-roll the die and take either result. The Actor feat is a good example of this. This is your Training Check and on the result of a 1, you have successfully made progress on training your new proficiency. This helps with the idea that, as a character levels up, their knowledge and proficiency increases and it is much harder for a level 20 character to include their Proficiency Bonus on a check than it is for a level 1 character to do so. In addition to those feats, the gnomes racial trait Artificers Lore works well as does the dwarves Stone Cunning (granted, these are just targeted expertise traits). This is a variant because it can provide imbalance in a game, though you might decide your table is OK with that. Regardless, here are those articles for your reference: The main issue with skill feats is that feats take up a lot of valuable real estate in Fifth Edition. Can PCs learn skill, proficiencies, or spells from other PCs? Why is Singapore currently considered to be a dictatorial regime and a multi-party democracy by different publications? Once a week on Saturday we will send out a single email with the latest posts from Dump Stat Adventures! Therefore, we can estimate that three skill or three tool proficiencies equal one skill and one tool proficiency in addition to one skill expertise. If that doesnt exactly excite you, I dont blame you. We go over ten important rules for creating dungeons and ensuring that they are blast to adventure in. Now that you are on board, lets go over the system and how it works. Would it be possible, given current technology, ten years, and an infinite amount of money, to construct a 7,000 foot (2200 meter) aircraft carrier? I also have a document for training that I use and others have said is helpful. You aren't really meant to go back to Port Nyanzaru once you set out, as you're encouraged to travel deeper into the jungle which is where the objective is. The Skilled feat (PHB pg.170) can be chosen by characters using the optional feat rules, and simply grants the character any combination of 3 additional tool or skill proficiencies, chosen freely. You can only make a Training Check once per day. Xanathars Guide to Everything has two additional feats restricted by race. You could* also gate going to next dice with having to pass a check with that skill / attack in play. Art Credit: Gideons Training by ChrisRallis, Episode 30 - Utilizing Tools at Your Table. Once you roll a 1 on a d4, you mark a Training Success and you must gain a number of Training Successes equal to your Proficiency Bonus. The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Not the answer you're looking for? This version of the downtime training rules requires an extremely long period of total downtime at 250 days, which probably makes it not a realistic option in many campaigns; however, Xanathar's Guide to Everything offers a reworked version in its Downtime Revisited section on page 134, which requires considerably less time: Receiving training in a language or tool typically takes at least ten workweeks, but this time is reduced by a number of workweeks equal to the characters Intelligence modifier (an Intelligence penalty doesnt increase the time needed). It goes from a d20 to a d12, d10, d8, d6, and last a d4. 2 Character advancement - buying new skills with Karma 6 When you make an Intelligence (Arcana) check to identify transmutation spells, writings, or effects, you can make your check with advantage. D&D 5th Edition Proficiencies A Abyssal Acrobatics Alchemist's Supplies Animal Handling Arcana Athletics B Bagpipes Battleaxe Blowgun Brewer's Supplies C Calligrapher's Supplies Carpenter's Tools Cartographer's Tools Celestial Club Cobbler's Tools Common Cook's Utensils D Dagger Dart Deception Deep Speech Dice Set Disguise Kit Draconic I can definitely see some people not liking that (and on a side note, completely forgot that weapon master was a feat geez it really is bad). Why doesn't Stockfish announce when it solved a position as a book draw similar to how it announces a forced mate? Third Edition brought about a properly-instituted Rule System for Skills, although many Classes had effectively very few choices regarding how many Skills you could take 2 Skill points per Level effectively limited a PC to having only two good Skills, unless that PC also had a good Intelligence modifier. A Skill system of sorts came into being with the release of Oriental Adventures in 1985, expanded with the Dungeoneers and Wilderness Survival Guides in 1986. One fix to this is allowing for the Variant Races that I created here on the blog. How long does it take to learn a proficiency 5E? /r/DnDBehindTheScreen is a subreddit for Dungeons & Dragons Dungeon Masters to trade tools, guides and resources. This should be a handy chart that provides suggestions for DMs to lean on, though it isnt written in stone. The reason I ask this question (besides obviously wanting to learn new skill proficiencies) is that one of the books says that you can learn with training to be proficient in a tool or a language, .. TRAINING After all, youre either proficient or youre not in those. If you dont wish to hire and trainer and simply want to make it out on your own, you can do that and it simply costs you 2 gp per day of work. It is just the way 5e is designed; a one size fits all balanced system. Alternatively, a half-elf, half-orc, or human character can take Prodigy which offers one skill and one tool proficiency and then augments a skill with expertise (double proficiency) in addition to one language. Why would Henry want to close the breach? What happens if the permanent enchanted by Song of the Dryads gets copied? This applies to when you choose race and backgrounds as well. I don't usually offer skill or tool proficiency training as part of downtime, so characters will only pick up new proficiencies via feats or multiclassing (assuming those optional rules are in effect) or class features. When you gain your first level in a class other than your initial class, you gain only some of new class's starting proficiencies, as shown in the Multiclassing Proficiencies table. The specifics will have to be worked out with your DM. Or, for some reason, I want my friend ranger to teach me stealth. I am a wizard so, as lore states, I learned them, probably from others wizards. You can gain a new proficiency in a language, skill, tool, or weapon. Whenever you make an ability check that uses that skills proficiency bonus, you can treat a d20 roll of 9 or lower as a 10. We could probably even go a step further and consider all arms and armor skills, too. But thats not all. The [somewhat contorted] history of Skills in D&D which I know of is as follows: Historically, D&D as originally written had no Skill System at all, and was essentially just Monster-bashing. Mix and match with variant rules to adjust difficulty and time it takes. This is usually done for roleplaying reasons as it directly conflicts with the game mechanics. Meaning the cost for this is between 125 and 250 GP at most to learn a new proficiency. Persuasion. Below are suggestions for key abilities to be used to determine the starting die size for gaining a tool proficiency. If you asked the average Fifth Edition player how many skills he or she thought there were, theyd probably answer 18 or so. Learn how your comment data is processed. All of the resources on this blog are available for personal use only for your Dungeons & Dragons Fifth Edition campaigns unless stated otherwise. You remove a work week based on the INT modifier (so potentially 5 workweeks taken off), and then you pay your trainer 25 GP per workweek that it will take. Skilled. Training Your New Proficiency Once you have selected what you wish to train, and have chosen the proper ability score, you can then spend four hours and at the end of practice, you can then roll a d20. It is just you punching a time card, paying a small fee, and then gaining the proficiency. Instead of taking a set racial package, a player can take the variant, choose a racial feat, then pick another feat. On the subject of Skills in 5E, it is very obvious to me that, IMHO, the Authors/Originators of this Edition wanted to ditch Skills completely. There are two feats that lend insight to how skills are officially valued in Fifth Edition. I believe part of the reason why Wizards of the Coast diminished the importance of skills in Fifth Edition was to put emphasis on the three pillars: roleplaying, combat, and exploration. All melee weapons require Strength, unless they have the finesse property. Sometimes, you just want a moment to relax and focus on your hobbies like picking up a new language, skill, tool, or weapon to keep your mind off the ancient evil hurtling towards the planet, who is intent on destroying all life. Is the EU Border Guard Agency able to tell Russian passports issued in Ukraine or Georgia from the legitimate ones? Now, sure the DM could go out of their way and do lots of RPing with a trainer, have some complications arise, and bust their ass to make it exciting except, at the end of it all, the character just puts a tick down to mark they accomplished a week of training and there are 9 more weeks to go. []. During this time you are practicing and, after you practice, you can attempt a Training Check in order to increase your understanding. If you want a trainer, because they provide some benefits to your training, the cost of a trainer is based on the DMs discretion, though I do provide a chart with some suggestions. Once a character has gotten down to the smallest die size, a d4, and rolls a 1, they are not immediately proficient in the ability. Again, this is probably a stupid question, so if I'm missing something go easy on me. But the class features a character gains shouldnt be the only thing a character picks up in their travels. 6 Do characters ever gain new skills/proficiencies? The Prodigy feat (see Xanathar's Guide to Everything) grants a Human, Half-Elf, or Half-Orc one skill proficiency, one tool proficiency, and fluency in one language. In order to learn a new language, skill, tool, or weapon, you must train at least 4 hours a day. Otherwise, new skill proficiencies can be gained through the optional multiclassing rules, which can grant some of the skill proficiency of the new class if going into Bard or Rogue, or as a possible non-monetary reward through Training. After you spend the requisite amount of time and money, you learn the new language or gain proficiency with the new tool. A bit more crunch. How do I learn new tool proficiencies? We appreciate any and all support! A growing archive of hundreds of years of D&D experience, all in one place! I wonder if a character can teach his skills other party members. The appropriate ability is based on what is being trained and the ability helps determine how quickly you can pick up the new proficiency. The ability for tools is determined by the DM, though a chart further below provides suggestions. I build off of the Xanathar's rule, but it does quickly veer into homebrew territory. As you can see, its not a huge selection. Yes, I know that in this case the concept of classes becomes meaningless, but let's ignore that :P, Site design / logo 2022 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA. This means that your die size automatically decreases a number of times equal to your modifier. Thanks. With some very simplified calculations, on avg with no bonuses, it would take 60 days to gain proficiency. Role-playing Games Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for gamemasters and players of tabletop, paper-and-pencil role-playing games. How do I put three reasons together in a sentence? WotC charges you money, and I understand that. It provides different ways for others to find the Q&A. Not everyone likes rules that are more complicated than rolling a d20 and adding a number. Some people may like WotCs ultra-simplistic take on training, others are looking for a bit more from their rules. You gain the following benefits: Next, I wanted to create new feats centered around skill specializations themselves. There is a variant rule at the bottom that bridges this gap where you have a partial bonus to your rolls based on the number of successes you do have (so say you are a wizard with a +3 at level 20 attempting to learn a tool. There are relatively few Skills, no Craft Skills [for making different sorts of things], few direct Knowledge Skills, etc. At 11th level, rogues gain the reliable talent feature. The DC will represent both your improvement, and take into account your ability modifiers for how much nature base ability you have. 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